[Papervision3D] OpenGL support in AS 3.0
Rob Bateman
rob.bateman at gmail.com
Tue Dec 4 16:12:06 PST 2007
Holy crap!
ok, lets deal with this a step at a time....
Sorry, but yes, i DO mind converting all my code to haxe or some other
> language.
Then don't. I was merely suggesting it as a way this is possible now. Haxe
is actually very similar to as3 - it's based on the same ECMA standards and
the differences are cosmetic at most.
As i said, i think the major problem with all those manners to get
> better performance in flash content
> is that its alienating a huge part (in my eyes the majority) of the
> flash platform content creator community.
fair enough. I would agree that if it's speed you're after with a game etc,
rather than requesting a bunch of low level commands to be shoehorned into
the next version of flash, just use something more powerful that's fit for
purpose.
It needs to get better performancewise, especially a lot better on
> display stuff handling side and yeah, it should keep its strengths while
> doing so, not achieve it by forcing the developer to do things in lower
> level creation manners for every performance improvement.
> Otherwise its getting less and less a good choice compared to other
> thing as time goes by.
I'm not a machine code guru, but i suspect the reason why lower level
commands are in faster languages is that they're necessary.
So yeah, because it doesn´t solve all issues but just some it shouldn´t
> be done?
umm, no. I was merely pointing out that you are not going to get stuff
running as fast as desktop-based languages with a graphic upgrade, you would
require a subsequent code upgrade too. Which is a lot for Adobe to
concentrate on, especially when in a previous argument your saying that
simply focussing on performace enhancing updates is alienating the flash
platform community.
Rob
On Dec 4, 2007 7:01 PM, tomsamson <blumenzuechter at gmx.de> wrote:
> "Opengl support is already possible with haxe and xinf (if you don't
> mind converting all your code to haxe)"
>
> Sorry, but yes, i DO mind converting all my code to haxe or some other
> language.
> If the bottom line comment to getting propper performance with flash
> content is always to learn another language (version) and working in
> lower and lower level manners then i wonder why one should choose the
> flash platform in first place.
> And i´m talking about the flash platform as whole there.
> If you make a component based hippo hyped Ria, hooray, you can make
> stuff in high level approach in bloated xml syntax or drag components
> around.
> For most other things, things where performance is vital, the solution
> with every version is "wanna performance, gotta do it lower level way,
> just also takes more time, no worries"
> As i said, i think the major problem with all those manners to get
> better performance in flash content
>
> (like having to deal with how the garbage collector works, strong data
> typing, overall learning a more coder oriented lower level language
> version, doing everything in code only centric manner, ideally
> bitmapdata based instead of working visually in the flash ide, god
> beware using movieclips etc)
>
> is that its alienating a huge part (in my eyes the majority) of the
> flash platform content creator community.
>
> Next up, yeah, it may attract a good chunk of java or some other
> language coders to be able to work in more similar ways on flash content
> like they are used to from their previous language.
> But on the other side i think there´s also a big chance that many pro
> coders working with flash start to think: hey, so i have to code in
> manners as restrictive and time involving as in Java or C# etc but still
> the performance is so much worse than there (also the dev tools in some
> cases), what about switching over to that other thing then instead?
> I know at least for offline content i´m already asking myself that
> question more and more often with newer flash platform dev tool/language
> versions,
> and more and more also for online content.
> It needs to get better performancewise, especially a lot better on
> display stuff handling side and yeah, it should keep its strengths while
> doing so, not achieve it by forcing the developer to do things in lower
> level creation manners for every performance improvement.
> Otherwise its getting less and less a good choice compared to other
> thing as time goes by.
>
> "
> As to my opinion on an opengl'ed flashplayer in the future - i think it
> is not the silver bullet some people try to make out. Sure the graphical
> rendering would be much faster, but another bottleneck would crop up.
> Most likely the as3 avm, which is a snail compared to the c++ based
> opengl library. So speed issues would simply swing back to a coding
> problem.
>
> "
>
> So yeah, because it doesn´t solve all issues but just some it shouldn´t
> be done?
> If it makes the code execution performance be the bottleneck end again
> i´d be fine with that as i´d see it as great improvement if the flash
> player could handle the graphical side for all things smoothly which i
> can do with it nicely running on codeside; would be a great advancment
> compared to the current state.
>
> I´d love to love the way the evolution of the flash platform goes but
> yeah, i think a lot of strengths are lost to gain some others.
>
>
> --
> __________________________
> Ugur Ister aka Tomsamson
> Co-Founder, Lead, Stimunation
> http://www.stimunationgames.com/
>
> play some games:
> -PowPool, 3D Billiard with a twist:
> http://www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18201
> -KICKFLIP Skateboarding:
> www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111
> -JayIsAdventure, an oldschool adventure
> game we made for a contest in 2 weeks:
> http://jayisgames.com/cgdc4_redirect.php?gameID=20
>
>
>
>
> Rob Bateman wrote:
> > Opengl support is already possible with haxe and xinf (if you don't
> > mind converting all your code to haxe)
> >
> > http://xinf.org/trac
> >
> > http://haxe.org/ <http://haxe.org/>
> >
> > haxe is basically a slightly different flavour of as3, and xinf is a
> > library that can be used to access opengl commands through neko (one
> > of the runtimes that haxe can compile to)
> >
> > Now. Someone has already tried converting papervision to haxe here:
> >
> > http://hi.baidu.com/actionscript3/blog/category/Haxe
> >
> > but i'm not entirely sure of the details as the site is in Japanese.
> >
> >
> > As to my opinion on an opengl'ed flashplayer in the future - i think
> > it is not the silver bullet some people try to make out. Sure the
> > graphical rendering would be much faster, but another bottleneck would
> > crop up. Most likely the as3 avm, which is a snail compared to the c++
> > based opengl library. So speed issues would simply swing back to a
> > coding problem.
> >
> >
> > if people really can't wait for opengl in the browser, then maybe try
> > the new opengl-es plugin here
> >
> > http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/
> > <http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/>
> >
> > which utilises a new plugin available currently for firefox 3 beta.
> > plans for opera, safari and ultimately iexplorer plugins are abound,
> > but at present unconfirmed.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 3, 2007 10:36 PM, Jon Bradley <jbradley at postcentral.com
> > <mailto:jbradley at postcentral.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Dec 3, 2007, at 2:07 PM, tomsamson wrote:
> >
> > > Personally i think graphic card support is more than overdue for
> > flash
> > > now, as it shows most other attempts to gain performance are
> > more and
> > > more alienating the non pro coder sections of the flash content
> > > creator
> > > community.
> >
> >
> > It's not just graphic card support, it's OpenGL support. Not all
> > graphic cards support OpenGL, and OpenGL implementation is not the
> > same across Mac/PC platforms.
> >
> > On the PC tip, Microsoft over the years has been piss poor in
> > releasing libraries so that card developers can include proper GL
> > support on the cards (look at Windows Vista for a prime example of
> > poor OpenGL support - more than half the time it's not available).
> > Microsoft pushes DirectX, not OpenGL.
> >
> > Secondly, you run into major compositing issues. OpenGL doesn't do
> > vectors natively, it renders polylines. It's not going to have the
> > display quality of Flash. And, to mix the two environments is asking
> > for serious problems - a resolution independent display medium with
> a
> > bitmap medium.
> >
> > While I absolutely agree that some type of hardware support would be
> > awesome in Flash, it would be a major undertaking that I can
> > guarantee would be fraught with bugs and lead to significant
> > instability in the Flash Player across platforms.
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > jon
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Papervision3D mailing list
> > Papervision3D at osflash.org <mailto:Papervision3D at osflash.org>
> > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rob Bateman
> > Flash Development & Consultancy
> >
> > rob.bateman at gmail.com <mailto:rob.bateman at gmail.com>
> > www.infiniteturtles.co.uk <http://www.infiniteturtles.co.uk>
> > www.away3d.com <http://www.away3d.com>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Papervision3D mailing list
> > Papervision3D at osflash.org
> > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> >
>
>
>
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>
--
Rob Bateman
Flash Development & Consultancy
rob.bateman at gmail.com
www.infiniteturtles.co.uk
www.away3d.com
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