[Papervision3D] Quaternions vs matrix

Wed Jan 17 12:50:03 EST 2007

I think one thing that's truly amazing is that we're bring this kind of 3D
power to the Flash masses.  It's not quite "pick up, plug and play" but it
will be very very close.

Designers/animators, that are very good at what they do in 2, can now
participate in a 3D way and all they have to do is continue using the same
tools and knowledge they've been using for years.  I think Richard Leggett's
sample with the movieclip materials and the tie fighter demo I textured with
an FLV are indication of that.

now, throw that in the mix of Paperworld (our space game) and imagine the
types of worlds we might create.  Because of the ability of Flash design
freaks to get involved, we could see very lush interactive features in this
game.  A simple example is live streaming video on a bill board that's
floating in outter space.  yeah sure, a normal game can do something this
basic, but allowing any joe with 2 minutes experience with streaming video
do it?  Oh, and plug in his own star system via XML and build it out as he
goes in realtime? YIPES!

I've even heard Carlos remark that because we're in flash we don't have
certain limitations that typical game engines have.  I don't really know
what those are off hand, it'd be great to see a list though ;)

Anyway, 2007 is going to be incredible

On 1/17/07, Ralph Hauwert <r.hauwert at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> With the wpf/e player having hardware accelaration in their planning,
> I wonder when we get some official signals on adobe's pov on hardware
> support in the player. I'm also wondering where apollo will go with
> this. As far as HW3D vs ubiquity > the current mac os x tiger
> implements some usage of OpenGL already. So if the level of code
> portability is on that level, how far can some more support be :D :D
> :D ? (I know, I know, that's really total bullshit, don't flame me for
> it).
>
> At least I really wouldn't like to see some kind of Flash Player
> engine implemented software 3d engine, since that would probably limit
> us in extending it. With BitmapData being fine as is, I wonder how
> they'll aproach the more complex 3D support towards developers, when
> the time is there.
>
> Ralph.
>
> On 1/17/07, John Grden <neoriley at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, i've been pushing Carlos in front of adobe people in hopes that
> these
> > efforts in 3D will get them to consider adding API's to the player that
> > could really help the speed of this type of engine.
> >
> > Its certainly in their interests to support and do something like this
> since
> > they're stated position on 3D is that they don't want to get into
> hardware
> > acceleration and platform issues nor do they want to increase the size
> of
> > the actual player for 3D support.  Not until it makes too much sense to
> do
> > so.
> >
> > Adding some API's that are specific to 3D could really enable adobe to
> get
> > alot more life out of the player "as-is" and still remain very cross
> > platform.
> >
> > I know they're at least looking at PV3D and that the SW Demo has been
> passed
> > around internally.  So, they're definitely listening ;)
> >
> >
> > On 1/17/07, Carlos Lunetta <carlos.lunetta at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jokes apart, from a spectator point of view (not good enough to become
> a
> > developer of any) it would be wonderful do see both sandy and
> papervision
> > getting cozy close together.
> > >
> > > I also think it's past time Macrodobe to show more their support for
> > efforts like these - 3D is a natural next step in flash evolution. We
> got
> > the pixel operations the were long needed in flash 8, we got some speed
> > boost on 9... they will only profit and add a tombstone in Director with
> a
> > really good 3D engine for flash.
> > >
> > > Processing has some java non-openGL 3D classes that were really well
> > written (http://dev.processing.org/) - and lots of talented people
> writing
> > 3D code with them - check Alcys, for example
> > http://www.alcys.com/index.html,
> > >
> > >
> > > Ralph Hauwert wrote:
> > > Sandy in the Sky with Paper as opposed to Lucy in the Sky with
> Diamonds ?
> > >
> > > On 1/17/07, ricardo cabello ~ mr.doob
> > > <info at mrdoob.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I got a better one, "Sandy's vision of a Paper, now in 3D!!!!"
> > >
> > > Wonderful name for a codenameproject!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ricardo Cabello ~ Mr.doob
> > > Designer + Developer
> > >
> > > Web:
> > > http://mrdoob.com
> > > RSS feed: http://mrdoob.com/rss.php
> > > Skype: r08028
> > >
> > >
> > > Pete Hobson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > sandpaper?
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > Good luck both of you on working out the best course of action here.
> > > Personally Im getting a lot out of following developments in these
> > > early days, as a learning experience.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 17 Jan 2007, at 09:50, kiroukou alapla wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It has never occurred to me that we are changing direction to
> > > follow Sandy.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, but their features will become very similar...
> > >
> > > I believe we simply want to expand Papervision3D in a number of
> > >
> > > ways, so we would be able to build what we have dreamed of.
> > >
> > > I don't think using matrices and hierarchy transformations is
> > > changing direction at all. Papervision3D will be faster and just
> > > as accurate. In fact, if we want to make a space game we will
> > >
> > > need features such as far plane clipping, which Sandy already has.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm indeed developping such features for weeks. It is a very
> > > important algorithm in 3D development.
> > >
> > > Obviously, those features aren't unique to Sandy. I don't think
> > >
> > > it has been our reference when developing Papervision3D. We have
> > > looked at PlayStation and Quake instead.
> > >
> > >
> > > I never said that you looked at Sandy, and that those features are
> > > unique to Sandy neither ;-) I did 3 3D engines in AS1, AS2,.. before
> > >
> > > deciding to share my experience with people through an OpenSource
> > > project. My experience allowed to be orient directly my work on this
> > > kind of architecture. It wasn't my solution, but a common solution to
> > >
> > > make a GOOD 3D engine!
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I proposed to join our efforts to build a new
> > > AS3 3D engine back in October, and haven't heard from you since.
> > > In the meantime, we have developed a very fast AS3 engine that
> > >
> > > has an enormous amount of possibilities.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes your engine has a lot of potential. I totally agree with that.
> > > But the features you are trying to add, I've done them months ago!
> > > That's why I think this is a bit a shame...
> > >
> > > I've always been agree to join our efforts on a common AS3 project.
> > > Sorry if I misunderstood something in your mail you refer to.
> > >
> > > Anyone is more than welcome to join us, and I'll be really happy
> > >
> > > to count on someone of your experience to work with.
> > >
> > > I'm sure your contribution would be invaluable.
> > >
> > >
> > > THat's something I'm allready thinking on. But as John (btw thank
> > > your for your words, and all my respect for your great work for the
> > >
> > > Flash community!) pointed out, my project as some nice features too,
> > > a documentation, some tutorials, and people are using it in
> > > commercial production... and it is not that easy to decide to stop
> > > everything.
> > >
> > >
> > > As Andre and De'Angelo are saying, your API is different and simple,
> > > so very interessting for many people. But now you are going to make
> > > it grow into a more complex engine, this good point might change, and
> > >
> > > both libraries will be quite complex to learn (in fact, 3D requires
> > > some learning, that's why people are a bit frustrated with Sandy =) ).
> > >
> > > As you don't seems to be ready for a merge, I've to think about
> > >
> > > leaving my baby as John said, and that's not that easy.
> > >
> > > Cheers from France to all flash 3D lovers ;)
> > > Thomas PFEIFFER
> > >
> > > On 16/01/07, *kiroukou* <
> > > kiroukou at gmail.com
> > > <mailto:kiroukou at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Carlos,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Due to its humble beginning, a cheap and fast solution based
> > > on the cosine law was chosen. At the time, Paper was Flash 7
> > > and it seemed more than enough for the purpose.
> > > Unfortunately this approach has a lot of limitations and
> > >
> > > contrary to what I believed it actually requires more
> > > calculations.
> > >
> > > That's why Sandy already have this matrix and tree 3D
> > > structure since its first release. That's why I asked you to
> > > unify our efforts to create a great 3D library.
> > > At the beginning PV3D had its own system, very restrictive,
> > >
> > > but fast and accurate. So their goals were differents, and
> > > people jsut had to choose between our solutions depending on
> > > wht they want.
> > >
> > >
> > > But now you are thinking to develop PV3D in the same
> > >
> > > direction as Sandy, and I don't understand (once again) why
> > > to do that.
> > > Sandy has a very slow development because I'm alone to
> > > develop it, and in my rare free time (I'm an enginneer, but
> > >
> > > not in flash, in aerospace). But with the power of the
> > > community, a library with a flexible licence as Sandy has,
> > > it can grow up very rapidly.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes the API is a bit different, but its just method or
> > >
> > > classes names. And it can change :)
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway this was my first public request to join our efforts
> > > after our private ones. I'm doing this once again because I
> > > see that our projects are going to be almost the same, but
> > >
> > > with a different name and team.
> > >
> > >
> > > Great work anyway, and just an advice, prefer matrix
> > > operation directly rather then quaternion (at least in AS2),
> > > it is faster (because a matrix converssion of your quaternion
> > >
> > > is required during your transformation chain).
> > >
> > >
> > > ++
> > > Thomas PFEIFFER aka Kiroukou
> > >
> > > http://www.flashsandy.org <http://www.flashsandy.org/>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > Papervision3D at osflash.org
> > > <mailto:Papervision3D at osflash.org>
> > >
> > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > <http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > <mailto:Papervision3D at osflash.org>
> > >
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > [  JPG  ]
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Ralph Hauwert
> FlashCoder
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/papervision3d_osflash.org
>

-- 
[  JPG  ]
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