[Papervision3D] Pv3D - Sandy - Away3D ???
Justin Lawerance Mills
JLM at justinfront.net
Sat Nov 24 05:55:02 PST 2007
Tomsamson
Very interesting, I would be interest in any links or specific books
you have regarding the AS3 issues you mentioned.
Ryan
No support for AS2 3D forces small AS2 web projects to AS3.
No support for AS2 3D forces large AS2 desktop projects to be
scrapped in favour of XAML.
Enrique
For your application if you have to use as2 you could look at using a
slice engine, maybe someone here could advise if it would work? there
is a book that has a chapter on it and some demos here:
http://www.arseiam.com/3d_frames.htm
Justin
On 23 Nov 2007, at 21:56, tomsamson wrote:
> Nice and all regarding your blessing speech pro as3 but the general
> situation is a bit more complicated than you make it up to be.
>
> Its great to do something new that requires the performance in as3 if
> there´s the time for it and its suited to be done with the
> restrictions
> of the VM2, but people who have made tons of as1 and 2 things and need
> to support them for some more time can´t just take the time to port
> all
> that stuff to as3 (neither will clients always pay for that).
> Next up the majority of flash users have always been people who either
> have no formal programming language (for example designers) or people
> who have some programming knowledge but maybe were scared off or
> annoyed
> of coding with more strict languages as java (before as3) or C++.
> They happily welcomed not having to think of garbage collection etc.
> For them its not just difficult to switch over to AS3 but in some
> cases
> just plain doesn´t make sense to them since they can get more reliable
> results going with as1/2 quicker. Creating AS3 stuff to my experience
> requires more planning work and overall has a way longer dev time
> (unless one relies on components or frameworks where others already
> invested that time or one just does quite simplicistic stuff anyway).
> For spaghetti coders (as i just call em now in lack of a better
> term ;-)
> ), let´s say people with more visual creation manner rather than code
> centric one it goes quicker to set something up with movieclips in
> visual way, clamp code on or in display objects and don´t have to
> bother
> with if the garbage collector picks something up when they remove a
> display object or if they can access a child display object from
> outside
> before the render event of the parent display object has fired.
> AS3/VM2 isn´t just crippled down in easy to use functionality in such
> areas but is downright buggy especially with movieclip handling.
> Sure, as coders the common sense is hey, just don´t use Movieclips,
> they
> are a waste of performance anyway.
> But yeah, if that is the bottomline comment to all such problems (just
> do all codebased, use as few display objects as possible, reuse
> objects,
> make sure you remove all active strong references yourself,constantly
> check ram usage in more complex apps etc etc) you will loose a big
> part
> of your your visual creation oriented people.
> (Yeah, not all of them are rushing out to create component based
> Rias).
> The marketing department thought seems to be: here we have the
> designers, there we have the coders. Those are totally seperate
> entities,coders should code, designers should design (not touch code).
> The reality in the flash word is different though, most people
> creating
> flash stuff in the past were way more designers than coders, often
> doing
> both. And yeah, flash is used for way more things than rias and
> framework based stuff like a pv3d demo.
>
> I coded several AS3 only projects which were started new from the
> ground
> up in as3, was quite nice to work with after the initial language
> (re)learning step.
> Not long ago i then had to port an as1 game to as3 though and man,
> that
> was the most painful thing i ever worked on.
> I first ported it just to address all the syntax differences. Around
> 3000 compiler errors addressed later it then ran without spitting out
> errors on as3 export.
> But then you see how bad it runs in vm2 if something done in as1
> manner
> (lots of nested movieclips, using attach/remove for mcs instead of
> reusing the same few created ones etc). Performance was worse than in
> the as1 version and also it cluttered up ram since obviously things
> were
> just removed and still existed in ram.
> I then rewrote such things,too, so its all bitmapdata based and
> objects
> are reused etc, but yeah, there i started to wonder if that game would
> have actually been fast to do in as3 at all if i had done it in as3
> right away. Because i HAD to do it that way to get it running in
> acceptable performance and ram usage at all, you know, even if you can
> code in both ways its nice to have the option to leave something in
> some
> way if you feel like that. With as3/vm2 you can essentially only do
> certain things in certain ways.
> I´m not talking about the language or compiler, i´m talking about such
> display side things or the way the garbage collector works for
> example.
> That is for someone who is used to working with as1, 2, 3 and other
> languages as java.
> For people enjoying java they might wonder what the fuss is about the
> way the garbage collector works, for many flashers it will cause
> lots of
> anger (to put it mildly) why something that was so easy to use (or
> ignore that it exists at all and does its job silently ;-) ) now
> causes
> so much conceptual work and forcing them to do things in certain
> way to
> even just get a stable thing going which doesn´t ramp up ram or cpu
> usage.
> This won´t be joyful for people who hacked together their cobble code
> and can´t do anything else than as1 manner coding.
> I think the way the garbage collector acts will lead to way more flash
> content ramping up ram usage and therefore forming a negative
> reputation
> for flash in some circles over time.
> As game developer doing stuff as ressource savey as possible is very
> important to me and there i noticed quickly how quickly one can get
> into
> using lots of ram with as3.
> Also regarding games some things aren´t just as easily possible
> with as3
> as even with as1 ;-)
> Imagine you want to do something like wario ware, a container that
> loads
> lots of minigames. You play one, it gets unloaded,the next one gets
> loaded etc.
> Pretty easily doable even with as1, with as3 and the way it handles
> external movies and garbage collection things could get more
> problematic..
> Doable, but way more dev time intensive and more error prone.
> Same with loading in movies you haven´t authored yourself and
> therefore
> have no clue how they act ressource usage/ram freeingwise.
> I love AS3 and VM2 for some things where it makes sense to use it,
> sadly
> a few issues make it not be the ideal solution for just about
> everything
> and everyone yet, right now pretty much the opposite actually.
> I totally think they have to fix how movieclips and external movies
> are
> handled and also add a command which instantly deletes an object
> from ram.
>
> Next up to me it has become more and more weird which steps are
> taken to
> improve performance next.
> We all know with what types of (display side) things flash has
> performance issues. The cacheAsBitmap command introduced to address at
> least a few is total nonsense to me (i elaborated on that one in
> another
> mail before). Next up ok, we as developers accepted we shouldn´t use
> Movieclips, don´t use vectors,alpha blended stuff, filters or
> blendmodes
> (too much). So flash gives us all those toys, but beware,don´t use
> them
> too much.
> Now for performance raising many yelled for graphic card support.
> Not asking for latest directX10 spec support, you know, just
> supporting
> the minimum specs that even most office machines support since 10
> years.
> First that wasn´t added at all, now its added in small glimpses, for
> example by hardware scaling in fs mode.
> We accepted having all those toys we couldn´t play with as much as we
> wanted, even forcing us to do stuff lower and lower level ways with
> every flash version (while the rest of the programming language
> world is
> going higher and higher level as they got how much that reduces dev
> times and costs).
> We accepted that because we knew why, right?
> Its because if they added propper hardware support that would blow up
> the player size and also raise hardware requirements for the player in
> general, so less people, like only ones with newer hardware than 10
> year
> old machines could only enjoy our content.
> Hm..
> Now i wonder, next up multicore support is added.
> Instead of propper graphic card support getting added ahead.
> So hm, how new pcs do have multi cores?
> Also the real cheap ones surely have quad cores by default, no?
> So i can´t use 10 year old graphic card features and can´t use half
> the
> graphic features of flash as much as i want but then force the user to
> have a multi core super new machine and tons of ram to have better
> performance?
> I don´t get the thought here.
> Maybe multi cores are the future (probably are) but the situation
> right
> now still makes me wonder a lot.
>
> I went over to flash cause it felt like it allowed to realize my
> fantasies in most rapid and enjoyable way, i like as3 and vm2 on some
> sides, but yeah, flash has lost a lot of its high level language
> usability and accessibilility and fast creation time possibilities
> with
> the latest version and i´m also not happy in which steps and ways
> performance is gained on player side or developers are forced to do
> stuff in certain ways to gain performance where the player should
> have it.
>
> Just a few cents coming from someone who deals with the problems of
> the
> more ground level creative community at the flash boards on daily base
> next to creating games for years.
>
> --
> __________________________
> Ugur Ister aka Tomsamson
> Co-Founder, Lead, Stimunation
> http://www.stimunationgames.com/
> newest game: KICKFLIP play it here:
> www.candystand.com/play.do?id=18111
>
>
>
>
> Ryan Christensen wrote:
>> Please let's kill off AS2 before the end of the year. It might even
>> help for kit developers to halt development on AS2 versions and
>> recommend going to AS3. Think of this this way, you will be
>> maintaining AS2 apps and games the longer that you support it. This
>> includes corporate, individual tests, killer flash apis and
>> libraries,
>> etc.
>>
>> Why should all these skills be used on tedious AS2 upkeep when a
>> platform that performs 10 times the speed at a minimum is now at 94%
>> of desktops?
>>
>> Thanks AS2 you got us to realize a new virtual machine was needed but
>> it is AS3 from here on out! (anyone who doesn't agree is probably
>> hiding a lack of skill).
>>
>> It is odd in previous flash versions developers and designers were
>> all
>> gung ho to use the latest, it seems with AS3 because it is a code
>> jump
>> people and companies are extremely scared. I guarantee 1-2 weeks
>> working with it (get past all your unknowns) and you will never
>> look back.
>>
>> I feel for the suckas maintaining AS2 apps through 2008 when everyone
>> is smoking them with AS3 massive throw downs.
>>
>> Library developers, drop AS2 support soon!
>>
>> RYAN
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* John Grden <mailto:neoriley at gmail.com>
>> *To:* papervision3d at osflash.org
>> <mailto:papervision3d at osflash.org>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 23, 2007 7:11 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Papervision3D] Pv3D - Sandy - Away3D ???
>>
>> agreed! no more as2 !
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2007 4:57 AM, fabrice Closier <f.closier at tfe.nl
>> <mailto:f.closier at tfe.nl>> wrote:
>>
>> /
>> //away is just an offshoot of Papervision and Sandy is just a
>> different class structure
>> /
>> Many actual PV and 2.0 features are coming from Away. Away
>> 1.9
>> is out and Away 2.0 will include many new features that
>> will improve your workflow.
>> Sandy 3.0 is improved too and the compagnon doc is just
>> fantastic.
>>
>> Copypasting... If you talk actionscript a bit, any examples
>> made in PV, Away or Sandy can be usefull.
>> Just visit the svn's and pick the API that fit best your
>> requirements.
>>
>> And yes: no more AS2!
>>
>> Fabrice
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2007, at 9:02 AM, Justin Lawerance Mills wrote:
>>
>>> Enrique
>>>
>>> AS2 is not going to work with this project:
>>>
>>> I really think there is too much for papervision3D as2,
>>> there
>>> is just two many faces needing to be moved, it would slow
>>> down beyond usabliity and there are some bugs you would have
>>> to fix such as depth sorting, you need AS3 and flash 9.
>>> Sandy as2 might be slightly faster but it does not support
>>> collada import, and at the base level it works the same way.
>>> You could try http://five3d.mathieu-badimon.com/ it is a
>>> vector engine but I suspect it will be even slower than
>>> papervision for this task. AS3 is like 10x faster/better
>>> than
>>> AS2 for papervision3D, just tell the client it is impossible
>>> in flash8.
>>>
>>> For AS3 I think any of the engines you mentioned would work
>>> they are all good solutions, but papervision3D has the
>>> largest user base, so there are more examples and people to
>>> offer ideas and assistance. Honestly I think Papervision3D
>>> is a good choice spending time considering Away or Sandy
>>> will
>>> not give you any huge benifits, as away is just an offshoot
>>> of Papervision and Sandy is just a different class structure
>>> for more or less the same thing, if your doing anything
>>> fancy
>>> you may choose an engine for a particular aspect but for
>>> your
>>> needs I think Papervision3D would be fine.
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Nov 2007, at 04:07, Enrique wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello again !
>>>> How I said before, I'm very new in 3d Flash, and searching
>>>> in the web I found 3 options that looks great.
>>>> PaperVision3D, Sandy and Away3D.
>>>> But I can't understand the advantages or disadvantages of
>>>> them front the others.
>>>> Why you chose PaperVision and not Sandy or Away3D?
>>>>
>>>> bye !
>>>> Enrique.
>>>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> [ JPG ]
>>
>>
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